City Questions Metzitzah B'Peh
A circumcision ritual practiced by Orthodox Jews called Metzitzah B'Peh, has alarmed city health officials, who say it may have led to cases of herpes - one of them fatal - in infants. And after months of meetings with Orthodox leaders, city officials have been unable to persuade them to abandon the practice.
The city's intervention has angered many Orthodox leaders, and the issue has left the city struggling to balance its mandate to protect public health with the constitutional guarantee of religious freedom.
And most traditionalist groups, including many Chasidic sects in New York, consider oral suction integral to God's covenant with the Jews requiring circumcision, and they have no intention of stopping.
posted by VOS IZ NEIAS @ 8/26/2005 01:34:00 AM
20 Comments:
At 9:17 AM,
A yid said…
1. According to a report in the Yated Ne’eman, June 3, 2005, the New York Department of Health refuses to share any information about its investigation into Rabbi Fischer. Is this true? Does the Department of Health conduct secret investigations where people are found guilty with no opportunity to review the evidence and rebut the charges against them?
2. According to the report in the Yated Ne’eman cited above, it has never been proven that people with herpes antibodies can infect infants through metzitzah b’peh. To date, it is an unsubstantiated claim. Is this true? Does the Department of Health use unsubstantiated claims in making medical decisions?
3. According to a report in the Kashrus Magazine, July 2005, in the case of the Flatbush twins, the first baby had a rash before the circumcision. The mohel refused to do the circumcision without a doctor’s approval. Afterwards, it became known that the rash was a herpes rash. In other words, the baby was infected before the circumcision. The mohel also took seven DNA tests for the herpes virus and all were negative. The mohel also took the IDG test, which can show whether a person had the herpes virus in the past few months. Again, the mohel was negative. From these facts, it is clear that the mohel is completely innocent of any wrongdoing. An innocent man is being unjustly victimized. Is the Department of Health aware of this information? Is there any reason for the Department of Health to continue its restriction on Rabbi Fischer?
At 10:17 AM,
Anonymous said…
boy, is it about time that someone with a little knowledge responds to an issue with questions and facts.
I don't know who you are, but where you at the meeting, because these are some of the questions asked by the Agudah when they met the mayor month's ago.
the problem again is, that some at the CRC decided to jump on the band wagon month's later because they viewed this as an other media opportunity, CRC should have joined the Agudah months ago it would have been more a united effort for the City and the Health Dept.
But, CRC media and money collection for Fisher, is just as Sharpton joining Mrs. Shean in Taxes, when he sees a camera he runs.
At 10:39 AM,
Anonymous said…
Well the question, is how The Aggudah could abandon Fisher to the wolves --once more doing what they view as the most finacially advantageous for the Agguda --at the expense of Klal Yisroel.
When will the Agguda learn that they represent Klal Yisroel -and not the coffers of the three that are running it into the ground!!
At 10:53 AM,
Anonymous said…
the aguddah is a political money org.
At 10:56 AM,
Anonymous said…
Funny -- let's look at the two sides:
The Agudah was working with the city and state to ensure that milah in general won't be impacted and that Fisher gets a fair hearing. First, keep goverment out of Yiddiskeit. I assume that if teh cit would prove Fischer to be a problem, the Agudah -- if their Rabbonim told them to -- would support a restarining order on Fischer doing Metzitzah b'peh.
CRC goes ahead and tells the state -- and later the city -- let's make a commission where the goverment and us will make sure this doesn't happen again. Essentially, they said (1) Fisher hurt these kids so let's make sure no one else does and (2) we are going to involve the goverment in the practice of bris milah.
Then, to the outside world, the CRC starts saying let's atttack teh mayor, lets call 311, let's write letters, let's make a rally. They tell Fischer don't coopertae with the city (after all, that would cause problems after they threw him to the dogs).
Who's full of baloney?
And who's collecting money on this? Certainly not the Agudah; they're sitting and getting klep from imbiciles like you.
At 12:45 PM,
dave said…
if the child has a rash, why would the mohel make b'peh, he can do it b'keli.
he can get infected, and transfer it to my kid.
who are the meshuggaim, that are so concerned about this, its only a minhag,
why arent they concerned about heimishe teenage pregnancies. i am sure those teenagers had metziza b'peh.
i think its all baloney.
At 12:48 PM,
Anonymous said…
Ok, so get yr facts straight (--and maybe yr spelling --or would that be too much to ask for), Agguda made a deal with the city --which precluded them getting involved in saving Fisher's skin. Essentially they let him fry.
At 12:59 PM,
Anonymous said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
At 1:22 PM,
Anonymous said…
Dave, are you going to stop eating chulent on Shabbos? It's ONLY a minhag!
At 1:24 PM,
Anonymous said…
Dear Dave
Its only a minhag
How dare you ??????????????????
Dont you know that minhag yisroal torah you should be ashamed by your own words your forfathers probably wore killed for keeping a minhag yisroal and you say its only a minhag.
At 3:18 PM,
Anonymous said…
Since you seem to claim to know how to spell, I would note that Agudah is not spelled the way you write it.
They made a deal with the city? That's why they keep on working with the city on a solution, both to rething the restraining order on R' Fischer and to prevent the city from getting involved in religious practices. They've been meeting, from what I understand, with top people in th ecity and bringing doctors and others into the case --- but they, according to you, are looking for attention
Let's look at your good friends....
CRC, they're a bunch of tzadikkim! For sure! I mean, they have admitted to the city that R' Fischer transmitted the herpes, and have invited the city to regulate bris milah (read the reports of the meeting -- and read between the lines). They've lied about facts, encouraged R' Fischer to be uncooperative so that the city had to take the matter to the courts, they are the worst two-faced "tzvu'im" in existence... just keep giving them your money, son.
As for "only a minhag" -- many poskim hold that it's part of the chiyuv, and there is disagreement as to whether a tube or gauze satisfies that requirement. It is well known that Rav Moshe held it was "only a minhag" -- yet maintained that keeping the minhag was itself a mitzvah!
Regarding the baby's sore, the story I heard was that R' Fischer was not going to do the milah intil it was completely healed, but the pediatrician told the parents that tehy can have milah -- with metzitzah b'peh -- done then. When the infant was niftar, the doctor ran to teh health department to complain about the mohel and save his own skin.
At 3:55 PM,
dave said…
it would be a nice thing to stop eating chulent on thursday night, with all the young people dropping dead from heart attacks.
I think I know,why u guys are not mokpid on the Ten Commandments, because its not a minhag yisroel, u never made them ur minhag.
talking in shul, and speaking loshon hara is not a minhag neither.
At 4:00 PM,
dave said…
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
At 4:03 PM,
dave said…
u wont stop speaking about ur neighbors, because its not making any problems, but with this issue babies became sick, so stop it, what is the fuss, do it b'keli.
At 11:17 PM,
Anonymous said…
let the father of the baby do it...what goes around comes around
At 3:31 PM,
Anonymous said…
Hey Dave, cool it.
I try not to speak lashon hara, i don't speak in shul, I try to treat others with respect, I learn, and I try to keep all teh mitzvos.
That having been said -- and saying that my own poskim hold that it is a minhag, minhag holds great significance in halachah.
There are those who say that using a tube is the same as b'peh, others disagree. But to "hock" that it should be done away with because of one incident -- when many thousands of metzitzos b'peh are done every year - -is absurd. It's far, far more dangerous to cross the street!
At 8:22 AM,
Anonymous said…
Dave, as far as i know, there's no minhag yisroel to eat chulent on Thursday nights.
At 10:58 PM,
Anonymous said…
To keep this in perspective let us look what the Halacha is regarding Bris Milah. If two brothers died as a direct result of bris milah the the third brother will not undergo a bris. What we take from this is that if there is a risk of death from bris then the torah will not require it. There is a way that we can ensure doing the mitzvah with all hidurim and do it safely. The Moalim should be required to submit to periodic testing for the Herpes virus and the project should be overseen by a Rabaim under the advice of Yiddish Medical doctors. This way we can ensure that we do the mitzvah of Milah B'Hidur and Ushmartim meod lenafshosaichem.
At 11:13 PM,
Anonymous said…
http://slate.msn.com/id/2125225/
At 6:14 PM,
Anonymous said…
To the anonymous who would like to compare this to "meisu echav":
1. That halachah flatly refutes your hypothesis. It is only when two children in the same family die from bris that we exempt further children. So even first cousins would have to undergo bris, we don't say that the practice is dangerous, etc.
In fact, here, one infant in all of Klal Yisroel is alleged to have have died from this. It's a terrible, horrible tragedy and we have to see that we do what we can to prevent such incidents in the future -- but the statistics as far as blaming Metzitzah are against you!
2. The testing idea can't work because 90% of the adult population tests positive.
Again -- baruch Hashem, far more than 99.9999999...% of children who have metzitzah b'peh done suffer no illness or problems.
Strangely, despite numerous tragedies in amusement parks -- on rides, in water, etc. -- I haven't seen the government or the rabbinate move to prohibit attending them. They're alot more dangerous!
Let's call a spade a spade: The rabbinic opponent is opposed because that's what he decided, and don't confuse him with the facts.
But don't fool yourself into believing the nonsense...
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