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Wednesday, August 09, 2006

Kiryas Joel, Monroe, NY - Some Chasidic Communitys Are Purchasing Foods Just With A "Acceptable" Hechsher

Kiryas Joel, Monroe, NY - In this community of 18,000, the local Landau’s grocery carries a plethora of kosher products, but most carry the endorsement of Chasidic certifying rabbis or from the Central Rabbinical Congress: CRC- (Hisachdus Harabonim). For example, the store carries soft drinks by Mayim Chaim but not from Coca Cola. Other familiar brands in the store include Kedem, Gefen, Klein’s, Golden Flow and Mehadrin.

The natural growth of the Chasidic community is driving sales in these communities to new heights. One kosher manufacturer says that the Chasidic and several other Orthodox communities (including Monsey, NY and Lakewood, NJ) were responsible for most of his 18% sales growth last year. While many Chasidic women shop in major supermarkets, they generally purchase foods with the “acceptable” certifications (Hechsher). Some retailers say that this is true only for certain categories of foods, namely meat and dairy. But groceries in these communities carry “heimishe” (known community) items even in such categories as snacks, cereals, and salad dressings. Israeli items are also sold in these stores, but most with the certification of the Badatz of the Eida Hacharedit in Jerusalem.

46 Comments:

  • At 11:55 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Thanks Shlomo, that's a nice article,

    that's the way all yiden to behave!!

     
  • At 1:57 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Some grocery stores that call themselves "kosher", carry items with the k triangle symbol. For most frum Jews, this symbol is worthless. Yet, they carry items, such as Minute Maid fruit punch which contains grape juice, and carries this meaningless symbol. A typical Jew that shops there thinks that all the items sold in the store are unquestionably kosher. This is typical "Lifnei iver lo tisen michsol". Why, they don't even carry any OU items that contain chalav stam!!

     
  • At 2:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    it would be interesting to survey the consumers of haimish hashgocha to hear their reasoning.
    Do they know what the difference in supervision is?
    Do they know what they are avoiding?
    Do they know that their cerals with haimish names come from Momco, in Minneaplis, that provides the exact same cereals to all sorts of private label companies (mostly grocery store private labels)? These are the same cereals with the same OU certification that the haimish hashgochas rely on when they add their certification?
    Is there sombody out there that believes that there is a Gefen factory making 6 different types of cereal?
    Is it possible that they (and I) do this to show that we are extra frum?
    It would be better to work on mitzvos bein Adom l'Chaveiru.

     
  • At 2:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Don't you know what is meant by a Heimesheh Hashgochah?

    The Rav Hamachshir blaibt in der heim.

    With the Triangle K at least no one is fooling anyone else. If you eat from the Triangle K you are relying on Rabbi Ralbag. Take it or leave it, it is up to you. With certain joker rebbeh hechsheirim you being lied to. At least one joker rebbeh I know of personally does nothing more than call a particular rabbi the OU and verify that the plant is under the O.U. hechsher.

    I suppose we can say that if you eat that rebbeh's hashgochah the yoke is on you.

     
  • At 3:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Cereals needs to be''BISHUL YISROEL'' that ''ou'' is not requeiring

     
  • At 4:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I asked my Rov and he told me that cereals DO NO have to be BISHUL YISROEL because it is not olah al shelchun melochum, I don't know who your Rov is but please don't paskim for everyone {or are you the one repacking the cereals so you can sell it withe a so called better Hecheser}

     
  • At 5:25 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    hey Anonymous 340.

    they dont need bishul yisruel (i work in the industry) for many reasons. you have a bigger problem with some of them being pas!

    as for a previous post, they are not coming from there eitehr and besides the co that makes the most private labels is ralston which has many plants all over the midwest. as for the holyer than thou cereals i know where they are from but i cant say due to confidentiality issues.

     
  • At 7:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    You may not be able to say where they come from, but some of the haimish brands actually say manufactured by Momco or malto-meal and distributed by (-----)which can be filled in as pathmark or kemach or gefen or anybody else that buys in bulk from these priate label companies.
    According to a Forbes article last year Momco and Malto-Meal control over 80% of the the private label cereal market.

     
  • At 8:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    the CRC had higher standerds then the others - that is a fact

    wheter they rely on the ok or ou for help that is also a fact


    but while the ou says that boiling water only has to be.... the CRC says it has to be hotter

    while most of the Heimishe olem will "never" eat meat from the OU
    they will drink coffe and soda under their supervision


    no one says that the "ou" is not kosher - BUT if you have choice to be machmir and eat from a hasgach that does not cut corners so to speak - why not choose the one that is machmir ?


    while the ou says cholov stam is good - the heimeshe olem does not drink cholem stam either

     
  • At 12:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    You mean the CRC that botched some local Hechsherim in Flatbush? By the way, people, do your research before making statements. The OU recognizes certain products as acceptable even if the Hechsher (or lack thereof) is unacceptable, such as the Mott's Apple Juice - not the other flavors. This is a known fact. You need to ask the Rabbonim who work at the OU who are extremely reliable and know what they are talking about because they take their responsibilities very seriously. They have Rav Belsky to rely upon.

     
  • At 7:03 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    So what specifically are these higher standards for CRC certification for basic foods like breakfast cereal and mayonaise?

    I would be very interested to hear what you actually think that they do different.

     
  • At 10:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The CRC allows goyim to be mafrish challah in bakeries. please see th e-mail correspondence that I had with a local bakery under the CRC

    rom: xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxxxatgmail.com]
    Sent: July 28, 2006 3:21 AM
    To: xxxxx xxxxxxxxx
    Subject: Re: xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx style bakery

    Hi hope the following will help you.

    1a. Are the boss and chief of staff shomrei shabbos?
    The boss is a shomer shabbos and the employer is not


    1b. If so, how does yyyyyy lock up the store at night?
    Yes she is the one who closes the bakery.
    Is there any problem with that?


    2. If only shomrei shabbos have the key, why would their be a need for yyyyyy to ask someone to light the stove the night before, because the workers would turn it on before the mashgiach came in the morning?
    If we need to light on the oven for early morning work the boss calls up the bakery to make Sherrie that the worker calls in somebody Jewish and the boss is double checking if he is over the phone, but recently we hired someone especially for lighting up the oven every night before closing, it shouldn't be a problem anymore


    What are workers doing their themselves?
    preparing the work for the day.

    Did the goy take off challah also?
    If they would be required to take challa they will defiantly do it. as we silently watched them numerous of times

    Thanks in advance the xxxxxxxxxxxxx

    On 7/27/06, xxxxxxx xxxxxxx [xxxxxxxxatyahoo.com] wrote:
    > Based on your responses I have 2 questions.
    > 1a. Are the boss and chief of staff shomrei shabbos?
    > 1b. If so, how does Gina lock up the store at night?
    >
    > 2. If only shomrei shabbos have the key, why would their be a need
    > for yyyyyyyyy to ask someone to light the stove the night before, because
    > the workers would turn it on before the mashgiach came in the morning?

    > What are workers doing their themselves? Did the goy take off challah
    also?
    >
    > Thanks for your quick respomse.

     
  • At 10:43 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I don't understand the boiling or hotter than boiling example of mehadrin. Try as I might it has no precedent in halach.
    Equally important it has no place in reality. Maybe believing it makes people feel good. Maybe it's become an accepted story, but it has no place in reality.
    I did spend time with a haimish kashrus coordinator, and when the meshgiach would call from Japan or anywhere else with a question about an ingredient the standard answer was if it has on OU, OK or a star K, it's acceptable for products that we certify.
    The p'shat is that haimish brands and haimish hashgocha are marketing tools.
    The Goyim want a picture of their favorite football player on the box, and we want a symbol from our favorite mosad. That is reality.

     
  • At 10:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The so called "heimishe" hashgacha is nothing but a racket.
    How many times has the Udvarer rebbe been to a factory under his hashgacha???????????

     
  • At 10:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    mr. levin

    when say a statement make sure you know what you are talking about.

    every hashgocho i know of have mashgichim that fly around the world for runs.

    yes they have people traveling all over the world.

    i remember once a mahgiach told me he was at a run making sour cherrys in cans he was sitting beeing boidek the cherrys together with the FDA he told what a stomech ache he hade that night eating so many cherrys.

    so dont talk what you dont know.

     
  • At 11:23 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    when you ask what the diffrence is in boiling water

    what if the company make on that same line of cereal a treifene product - dont you see that being machmir would be better ?

    the fact is that the OU will be mikel - or at least find somewhere in halacha how it can pass while the CRC will not look away and not try to have the product kosher

    the fact that the "ou" deals with multi million $$ companies and they get presuure to get thing done - we all would try to make our biggest client happy ...........

     
  • At 11:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The cereal companies do not make treif and non-treif. They make breakfast cereals that are kosher, so the OU puts their hashgocha on the cereal. Since there is an OU on this pareve product the haimish hashgocha puts their seal on the product for their companies. There is no improved kashrus.
    As for the cherries, it was most likey a product not already certified by the OU or another large certifying agency. The parve products that do have certification from the big organizations are frequently accepted by the haimish organizations.
    If sombody is going to post loshan hara about the OU or any other person or organisation; accusing them of compromising kashrus for profit, they should have specific knowledge, and not make vague unsupported accusation. If you believe all the rumors you hear in shul you will never know the truth.

     
  • At 12:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    the fact is that the OU will be mikel - or at least find somewhere in halacha how it can pass

    ___________________________________

    Totally untrue and baseless. If the OU did not adhere to the strictest standards, they would be useless and worthless, like the triangle K. The fact that they give hashgacha to chalav stam is based on heteirim from top poskim whose psakim all respect.

     
  • At 12:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To the person who brought up the temperature of boiling water: (Pure) water boils at 212 degrees farenheit (100 degrees Celsius) -- no higher, no lower under normal conditions. If a certain hashgacha requires their water to "boil" hotter than that, they no longer have water. They have steam.

     
  • At 1:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "The fact that they give hashgacha to chalav stam is based on heteirim from top poskim whose psakim all respect. "


    The word here to watch out for is
    "heteirim" the CRC does not loo for them. while the "ou" does

    you said it perfectly


    on another note

    "from top poskim whose psakim all respect. "


    NO WE DONT - i dont want to get in to a whole other discussion but most living in monroe do not take psakim from the rabbonim the "ou" adheres to

    so basicaly they are more macmihr

     
  • At 1:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The question is how hot the water needs to be, inorder fot the machines considered to be kashered after a treifer run.

    As for machmir/meikil, there are cases where the OU is more machmir than the Badatz/Eida chareidus. There was a discussion a while back regarding kashering chocolate machines, where the OU would not allow Chocolate liquour to be uses, and the badatz does.

    As for kulas, they all rely on various halachically accepted leniencies.

    I recently spoke to a heimishe company that has a heimeshe hashgocho as well as the OU, and they said, that the OU frequently visited the plant to verify the production, while the CRC never came in, relying on the fact that the owner is heimish.

    As for restuarants, the OU requires a full time mashgiach, while the CRC in many cases does not. Also, the CRC will have a sign that says not everything in the store is under their hashgocho, while the OU will not allow that.

    People are entitled to eat whatever hashgocho they choose, but to make a statement that the OU is not good is stupid. Call any CRC Mashgiach and ask them what they think of the OU.

    As for heimishe hashgochos, there is a wide variety of quality. There are some that are more experienced, have larger staffs, and are generally more knowledgable in the complex issues arising out of the widespread use of chemicals today. There are those, that are really lousy, and the extent of their hashgocho is limited to the check they collect monthly.

    Personally, I have a rule that I eat a product that has a heimishe hashgocho that also has a 'national' one, and don't rely exclusively on the heimishe.

    History has shown, ie: the Mayonaisse scandal a few years back, that the OU did not have a problem while the heimish did.

    As for Pas Yisroel, there is a heimishe ice cream sandwich, that while the ice cream is cholov yisroel, the sandwich is pas akkum. This product has a heimishe hechsher, so go figure.

    As for the restuarants in Flatbush, there were a number that were cancelled by the ou/star-k after numerous hashgacha violations, yet the chasidishe hashgochos picked them up no problem, and don't even have a mashgiach temidi.

    The bottom line is, everyone should educate themselves about what they do and don't eat, and not rely on any hechsher!!!

     
  • At 1:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    For anyone who believes that the CRC does not look for Heterim, while the OU does, this reminds me of the follwing story:

    A chusid tells a litvak who is learning daf hayomi, that he doesn;t know what it says there, but if the satmar rebbe said you are not allowed to learn it, it is for sure full of apikoirses.

    My point is, before you make such stupid statements, know what you are talking about.

     
  • At 1:45 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    With regards to boiling water - the Machlokes is with regards to what is Yad Soldes Bo, not the actual tempurature at which water boils. As far as which Hechsher is more machmir - there are some areas where the OU is somech on one shita, while some other hechsherim are not. Some areas are with regards to Bishul Yisrael/Pas Yisrael, where the OU is generally more likely to accept something than other hechsherim. BTW, items that are Pas Palter are absolutely Kosher lehalacha according to all, and are certified by the OU; other hechsherim, though, will only certify items that have the HIDUR of being Pas Yisrael (yes, it's better to be Pas Yisrael, though the Gemara states, and the Rishonim pasken, that Pas Palter is fine). Yashan vs. Chadash flour is another issue; the OU is generally not makpid on Yashan, while other Hechsherim often are. FWIW, in my time working in Kashrus, KAJ was the most makpid hechsher that actually knew what they were doing.

     
  • At 2:06 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    As for the comment about people from monroe not using heterim; I think it is safe to say that in monsey, boro-park, williamsburg etc. you would be hard pressed to find people that accept cholov-stam. As for other heterim; all kashrus agencies use heterim. If you don't think so then you know nothing about the kashrus business. The idea that by buying products with a haimish hashgocha is improving the kashrus of the people of monroe, without putting any effort into finding out the details of the kosher food business will lead to problems. The made up stories about the OU prove that there is no substantial difference. If there were then there would be a substantial conversation. The basic premise is that the guy with the longer beard and payos must be more frum, and therefore he will give me a "more kosher food product". Not.

     
  • At 3:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    back to the point

    the "ou"crowd hold 60 minutes for shabbos to end or maybe less the himeshe olem 72 minutes

    the "ou" org. is a full supporter of the "state" while we are not

    how many over here it from "drake bakeries" well the "ou" says its kosher - do you eat it ?

    do you eat their dairy products ?


    and go look at thier website and click on their video on kosher

    - i dont need to say anything more why the heimeshe olem does not trust their hasgacha

    KOL HAKOVOD to those who keep on being machmir

     
  • At 3:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    as to what someone said about KAJ being more makpid I am on a low carb diet and recently bought a cookie which had a CRC and a KAJ hechsher And I couldn't tell if it had wheat in it and was not sure of the Brocha to make. I called up the CRC while they gave the hechsher on the cookie couldn't help me with the bracha and wasn't sure of the ingredients. they gave me a number of the Dayen who turned out to be from the Hisacdus who told me if it has Wheat it is a Mezonoes if not it is a Sehakol I told him thank you but that is my exact question to you. How do you give a Hechsher if you can't answer which Brocho to make?
    I then called the KAJ who immidately knew what i was talking about and gave me the answer I needed I was very impressed with the KAJ and very disapointed with the CRC

     
  • At 3:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    i am not at all surprised that you found the KAJ to be far more learned and informed than the CRC.

     
  • At 5:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Hey Mr. machmir: Did you know that R' Moshe's (Feinstein that is)children ate Chalav Stam? He probably knew something you didn't. Being machmir doesn't make you a bigger tzaddik or genious

     
  • At 5:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Just rememeber that 90% of all the ingredients used by the manufacturer's of Kosher products (and accepted by all hasgochos) have the OU's hechsher.

     
  • At 5:46 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I would say that KAJ is the best hechsher tody. star k used to good once; but money always wins out in the end They now give hasgacha on cholov stam products. So i dint eat any of their poducts at all anymore

     
  • At 9:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    It's not just that KAJ is more makpid, it's that they are more makpid and know what they're talking about.

     
  • At 9:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    R' Moshe Feinstein did not let his kids eat cholov stam regardless of his psak allowing it.

    Don't spread such false rumors. R' Moshe was personally makpid for himself and his family.

    As for 60/72, I recently heard a story about the Satmar Rebbe (R' Yoel), where a Ruv who was opening a shul asked him when he should daven Maariv, and the Rebbe told him that on a Taanis they should daven Maariv so that they finish by 60, because that is the halocho, the rest is just a personal chumra.

     
  • At 11:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    R' Moshe's family did indeed eat chalav stam and that is no rumor.

     
  • At 11:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    How holy and big rab Moshe was
    Trough his name 1000's of Jews are being cheated and corrupted
    Because the ou haves taken his hater and spread it not only with plain milk they spread the heter for cheese they spread the heter for tuna not only for tuna of USA also for tuna made in Asian countries and lots of other products beside tuna and milk
    reb Moshe’s heter is personally responsible for all the Jews that buy coffee with milk at a 7 11 relying on usda because once a bottle milk is being used in a trifa place even if it haves a cholov yisreal label if it was not open in the presence of a Jew we are assured that some error was happened to the milk unattended and the ou accepts dirking that kind of coffees in 7 11 even if the same shamta that cleans out the deli slic’re cleans the percolator etc.
    There are no words for the disaster the ou caused with cholov akim
    actually ou and ok and kof k etc have kashrut alerts and most the alerts is for stuff that is not cholov yisreal because if they would a mashgiach Tamidi in most cases the errors wouldn’t heaved happened
    There is allot that I know but I’m afraid to talk because I’m involved in the ou and its costing my blood watching the corruption going on

     
  • At 12:22 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I am also involved in the OU and their hashgocha is one of the best I have ever seen. If you really see problems then go tell someone with the power to do something. Don't hide and spread malicious rumors and Loshan Hora. The OU has done more to advance kashrus and prevent the eating of tarfos than any organization.

     
  • At 10:19 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The OU rabbis are serious men, and their heksher is good enough or me. I have no problem eating cholov stam IF there is a reliable heksher on it (OU, OK, Kof-K etc).

    Life is too short to waste tormenting ourselves with paranoid fantasies about "goyim" somehow spikeing cows' milk with pigs milk or other treif substances just to destroy the Jews' kashrus and somehow endanger our neshomas. I don't know about other countries, but over here, MILK IS MILK and all commercially available cholov stam milk (with a heksher) is COW'S MILK. Only that and nothing more. Dairy companies may not be afraid of a rabbi supervising Kashrus -- but they are definitely afraid of the USDA, which can padlock them and put them out of business on the spot if it finds them contaminating the milk. And if, as reported, Reb Moshe ztl gave permission to drink cholov stam, it's good enough or me

     
  • At 11:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I believe that would R' Moshe be alive today - he would change his mind on the milk issue

    at those times it was really hard to get cholov yisrael in most parts of the country -not like now

    and for the "ou" to use that heter to produce thousands of products , is a disgrace, and the fact is that all most everyone recognizesit as a disgrace - i bet if they do a survey of those who eat "ou" they will find that a big % does not eat thier dairy products ? so has the "ou" ever asked themselves why ?

    that is what i meant "heterim"


    as for R'Moshe, there are plenty other psakim that he made that the moroe olem does not hold - ie mechitzas, eruv , etc

    so in conclusion, no one said that the "ou" is not kosher, everyone believes that R'Moshe was a big tzaddik, but the hemishe olem had other rabbanim and diffrent psakim, and it usally is to be machmir

     
  • At 11:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I don't see what the "heimishe" cholov yisrael brands do more than what the OU does in supervising milk. Please educate me. Are there cows milked by Jewish farmers? If OU puts there stamp on say Tuscan milk, doesn't it mean that they supervised the whole process to insure nothing unkosher entered?

     
  • At 11:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I can't understand how so many observant Jews are so makpid on cholov yisroel/cholov stam, but are mekel on the yashan/chodosh issue. The Rambam is posek that issur chodosh is m'doraisa and he bases it on a stam mishna is maseches orlah. Furthermore, the Gra was very makpid on this and critcized those that found ways to be mekel. Re cholov stam, no rav will tell you that you are drinking unkosher milk. With eating chodosh, you may be oiver on an issur d'oraisa.

     
  • At 12:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The issur of chodosh in Chutz Laaretz is a discussion among the Rishonim, and most hold it is not required. As for being machmir, yes, people should, and most of the heimishe products and bakeries are.

    As for the OU Hashgocho on milk, it means that they verified the process, but aren't physically present at the time of milking. To be Cholov Yisroel, a jew needs to be physically present at the time of milking.

     
  • At 12:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    11.30

    yes if the "ou" had a masgiach at tuscan milk when the cow is milked it would be cholov yisrael - but they use milk where there is no masgiach at the milking

    ---------------------------

    so when someone says they are looking for heiterem he is 100% correct

    ---------------------------------

    no one says thatgoing with shorts in the summer is a issur - yet you wont see someone from the heimeshe olem go that way -"ou" crowd well ............

     
  • At 8:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I don't believe that any of the Mashgichim in the OU actually go around with shorts.

    They are generally learned in various frum yeshivos and don't look like their mispallelim.

     
  • At 10:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The hasgocha industry is a business like yeshivos today. Alot of what goes on with the "hechsherim" is pure garbage. People in Boro Park think their food is holier than what the Flatbush people eat !!
    Mayim Haim, Gefen and Horowitz, Greenberg, Zlates, and all the other Jewish sounding food companies are just private labels and then rip all of us off by charging 200% more because their Rov or holy Rabbi was present!!


    There are apx 4 major tuna companies in the world and the biggest two are Bumble bee & Starkist which is owned by Heinz corp. These two companies make 90% of ALL private labels. They make tuna for the US governement, Gefen, Shoprite, pathmark and the list goes on and on. The funniest thing is that when it comes to Passover the jewish companies charge an extra 1.50 more than the same non jewish kosher for passover certified can!

    Same taste, same company same product, same cost.....But the frum distributors like ripping and taking advantage of the klal.

     
  • At 11:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    you have no idea what you are talking about.

    mayim chaim has his own plant

    dagim has thier own facility

    shufra has their own plant

    -as for charging more, well you are correct on that - but do "ou" products cost the same as non kosher products ?

    we all know that the kosher market is corrupt , you can buy mehadrin cheaper in boro park the williamsburg and cheaper in flatbush then boro park, but that does not make it less of a "better" hecsher then the "ou"

     
  • At 11:45 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Dress manners while at the work site can be very misleading, my friends.
    Kedem had photos years ago of their winery and heimishe staff in undershirts and hard hats. No tzitzis, no white shirt, but beards and payos yes. For those in the know, the temperature in wine making (fermenting) process is extremely unbearable.
    And let's not forget the very recent pictures of the Satmar Rebbe (Monroe) wearing a hard hat in the shlochthoiz.
    There are lots of distorted opinions mentioned here by commentators so please don't believe everything as fact but consult your regular Rav u'Posek.
    And on the East Side there was a store named Miss Sugar which sold womens undergarments owned by a heimishe fellow who everybody thought was "Mishuga" (Miss Shuga).
    Does that mean that he was no good because he sold underwear to shiksas (no he didn"t look at them - maybe he wore sunglasses)

     
  • At 6:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Everyone has their own silly opinions. And I doubt whether they have a word of truth in them!!!

     

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