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Sunday, November 19, 2006

Jerusalem, Israell - Rabbis to Hold Operation Cover Up Rally on Motzei Shabbas

Jerusalem, Isreal - Orthodox rabbis have set to convene to a rally Motzei Shabbas against immodest clothing, in a bid to "safeguard modesty."

Last year, the limits of modesty were broken in the Orthodox community. Young Orthodox girls began going to shopping malls to popular chain stores such as Castro and Zara where they purchase fashionable clothing – too fashionable according to the rabbis.

And in order to fight the practice, several seminary rabbis and administrators decided to have female students sign a new modesty regulations contract.
The contract would bind each student to wear extra thick stockings, a shirt long enough that even bending down will not rise above the skirt, a skirt that would completely cover the knees.

77 Comments:

  • At 6:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    its time to implement the bourkha
    operation coverup ........

     
  • At 7:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Yes i agree , we should all learn and dress like the arab women.

     
  • At 7:53 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Talaban

     
  • At 8:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Anon 7:27 BRAVO. IF YOU WANT A M'CHANECHET JOB, YOU GOT MY VOTE! MY ONLY ADDITION WOULD BE THAT SEMINDRY IS A BIT LATE TO TEACH THE BEAUTY OF TZNIUS. MY DAUGHTERS' SCHOOL STARTS 14 YEARS EARLIER!

     
  • At 12:06 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    no wonder the girls are like that today. they are only going to rebel

     
  • At 1:12 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    THIS IS NOSENSE. DON'T WE ALL KNOW THE GIRLS WILL END UP DRESSING TO PLEASE HUSBANDS?

    Hasn't there just recently been a Tznius shiur in Lakewood, where the famous speaker (everyone knows who) told the MEN in attendance, that he's received too many calls from Yinge Vablach who were crying that their husbands complained to the wives that they dress TOO nerdy and tzniusdik and that's why he wanted to address the MEN- this was IN LAKEWOOD with Kollel couples!!!!!!!!!

     
  • At 1:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Start looking ugly now.

    Ugly contest will be held at
    13 Ave Grocery.

     
  • At 3:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Bichvod harabim, I'd just like to set the record straight on this idea. We all know the power of tznius, what it has brougt out in Klal Yisroel for so many generations. I won't launch into a whole dvar Torah now, b/c we all know the sources already.

    I just want to put in my two cents as a very real and normal GIRL who battles these issues daily.

    There is such pressure to dress well nowadays. It is not stretching reality by any extent to say that to enter any one of a huge number of shuls in numerous good frum communities is to enter into a fashion show. If we want to be looked at as doing our "hishtadlus" in the world of dating this suggests dressing up enough to catch the eye of potentail mothers-in-law.

    Yes, in all honesty I will say that I shop in stores such as Zara, and so each time I purchase an item I have to make that consious decision and ask myself if this is really something suitable for a Bas Yisroel. Sure it covers my collar bone, and my knees and elbows, but this isn't the issue. The issue at hand is the idea that there is supposed to be an idea of hevdel bein yisroel l'amim! We aren't part of this world. We should walk around like a modest goy; dressed in their clothing and their styles with just a little bit less skin showing.

    I'm not preaching here. I just want to let you all know that it's not an easy differentiation to make. Seminary is such a precarious time for girls, because this is the one last chances for girls to set their ideals in a totally insulated environment, free from the pull of the outside world. This is a chance for teachers and Rabbanim to leave one last impression on us. I've seen the changes girls go through in seminary as far as their dress, and it isn't easy for a single one of them.

    These teachers and Rabbanim are handling your daughters' neshamos for nine months. We all know that post seminary a girl will drop at least a level or two from where she was holding on the last day, and it is for that reason that during the year her ideals must be given that chance to soar. She must know where she can potentially get to in life.

    "ontract would bind each student to wear extra thick stockings, a shirt long enough that even bending down will not rise above the skirt, a skirt that would completely cover the knees"

    It isn't so much of a BY type seminary to ask that a girl cover up in a way that her parents had already raised her to for the first eighteen years of her life.

    Is it so hard to understand that a seminary wants to give your daughters the chance to become all they can? So they come home looking a bit more frum than when they laft, and a bit more idealistic, but I ask you, who do you want to be raising your grandchildren?

    This isn't about dressing in the same way that the Muslim world abuses their women, it's about us being given the tools to implement hilchos tznius in our own homes for future generations.

     
  • At 3:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    B'H it's about time. Kol Hakovod to them. By the way the Arabs learned from us.

     
  • At 10:44 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Right on 3:21 AM !

    But what can we do to lessen th problem described above by Anon 1:12 AM ? Even though it's a small percentage- isn't something terribly wrong when any F/T learners have the "teineh" on their wives that they're too nerdy and Tzniusdik?

    "Hasn't there just recently been a Tznius shiur in Lakewood, where the famous speaker (everyone knows who) told the MEN in attendance, that he's received too many calls from Yinge Vablach who were crying that their husbands complained to the wives that they dress TOO nerdy and tzniusdik and that's why he wanted to address the MEN- this was IN LAKEWOOD with Kollel couples!!!!!!!!!"

    1:12 AM

     
  • At 12:40 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    "its time to implement the bourkha
    operation coverup ........ "

    "Yes i agree , we should all learn and dress like the arab women. "

    These statement are made of ignorance, the arab women are forced to dress this way because they are viewed as objects, their men OWN them, exctly the OPPOSITE of the hashkofos we want to impart.

    Seminary is WAY TOO LATE to ingrain a sense of 'eidelkeit' and self worth in a girl that she is valued for her midos, mind, etc and not for her body and clothes

     
  • At 1:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 12:40 PM -

    Why aren't you, or anyone else here, for that matter, analyzing why boys' Hashkofos are perhaps more problematic than girls'?

    Many people find many boys, whether learning or working, having much more negative Hashkafos. Whether it's materialism, or Tznius, it's more often the men who are the movers and shakers in ruining what values were instilled in Seminaries.

     
  • At 1:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    By the way, the term "Seminary" in Eretz Yisrael refers to high school. 9th grade through 14th grade (two years past American high school) is called "Seminary" in Israel.

     
  • At 2:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 1:37 PM :
    Right. It's the guys who want "trophy" wives to show off with.

     
  • At 4:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    why dont they ask the bochurim to sign a contract that they will only go out with nerdy dressed tzniusdig girls?

     
  • At 5:39 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Thousands of haredim participate in conference warning of slacked modesty amongst women. Married men only attend conference; learn about allowed shirt length, skirt size, wigs

    A rabbi at the “Strengthening and Awaking on Modesty” conference held Saturday night attended by thousands of haredim said, “One of our generations biggest obstacles is tight clothing… each and every one of us must stand guard and make sure his wife and daughters’ clothing are modest, both in how much they cover the body and how they are worn.”

    The event took place in the presence of the Lithuainia haredi public’s leading rabbis, including Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and Rabbi Aharon Liv Steinman. The conference was intended for yeshiva students only, meaning married men.

    Although the commandment of modesty is mostly for women, the attendance of women was not allowed at the conference and even unmarried men were asked to leave the hall for the duration of the conference.

    The first speaker at the conference, Head of the Hebron Yeshiva Rabbi David Cohen, quoted the Genius of Vilnius, Rabbi Eliyahu, in saying “The evil urge, it’s spice for people is the Torah, and for modest women. With the spice of the labor of Torah we deal with life systems, and for women and girls, their spice modesty.”

    “It’s a feeling that is felt as long as we face the large world, and the issue gets harder. The influence of the world is extremely terrible, and we can’t say the world of Torah is immune from the street, which is deteriorating and its influence is seeping into our public,” he continued.

    “There are those whose entire purpose and work is to manufacture clothing the opposite of modesty, and this reached yeshiva students’ wives and seminaries’ daughters. The foundation of all fashion is to search for the opposite of modesty and that’s why the matter is important to us,” the rabbi said.

    Tamar, a young woman, married for about a year and in the very late stages of pregnancy, waited for her husband on a bench outside the hall. She explained to Ynet, “Just as the Torah is most important to men, so is modesty for women.”

    Then why don’t women participate in these types of conferences?

    “Conferences on the issue are held for women too, but at schools and seminaries. The basis of Judaism is that the women abide by their husband’s will. Only today, now that I am married, I see that what I was taught until now in the seminary is nothing. The way a husband influences his wife is everything,” she continued.

    In the meantime, a number of basic regulations were read in the conference with regards to modesty. “Shirts, skirts, sweaters and the like should be loose enough that the form of the body is not seen. The clothing should not be transparent, and a lining or additional shirt should be worn under any transparent fabric.”

    “Shirts should be at least 10 centimeters longer than the edge of the waistline on the skirt, in such a way that they would cover the skin in any movement. The collar should be appropriately closed. Sleeves should cover the elbows at any movement. Any fabrics that cling to the body such as spandex, tricot, and the like are prohibited.”

    “Skirts should began at the waist and end at the middle of the leg, and as mentioned, should be loose and not of clinging fabric. Wigs must not be too long or in models that have been prohibited.”

    When all the regulations were heard, it was said that “women and girls should be instilled with pride in wearing modest clothing”.

    Tamar appreciated that rabbis feel the importance of emphasizing the issue because “there was a time when there were less influences. The haredi world was much less opened. Today the world has evolved; many women are educated and work outside the home, and study in places they didn’t used to, like computers or interior design”.

    “These are fields that require being in the modern age and seeing what’s out there. It’s important because women today work, see all sorts of people not of our own, and learn from them,” she concluded.

     
  • At 6:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To "Anonymous said...
    why dont they ask the bochurim to sign a contract that they will only go out with nerdy dressed tzniusdig girls? 4:58 PM"

    Why bother? Let's just start a new religion based on our preferences, and let's forget about the old one.

     
  • At 8:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    lets face it were not saying that the girls go around without being covered but i think were going a little overboard are we going to have rabbonim give hechsheirim on womens fashion .GIVE ME A BREAK

     
  • At 10:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The heavyweights of the haredi Lithuanian yeshiva world gathered Saturday night in Jerusalem to warn an audience of thousands of male, married yeshiva students that haredi women's dresses are too short, their wigs are too long, and their sweaters, shirts and blouses are too tight.
    "Each and every father and husband has an obligation to vigilantly ensure that his wife's and daughters' dress is in accordance with the laws of modesty," read a declaration that was distributed after the meeting.
    None of the speakers explained in detail the limits of modest dress. However, certain fashion specifics, such as making sure that blouses were "10 centimeters longer than the edge of the skirt along the waist so as to cover [the midriff] during all movements" were singled out in italics in the declaration. Single men and women were not invited to attend.
    Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, leading halachic authority for haredi Lithuanian Jewry, Rabbi Yehuda Leib Steinmen, a major spiritual leader, Rabbi Michal Yehuda Lefkovitz of Ponevezh Yeshiva, and Rabbi Natan Tzvi Finkel, head of the Mir Yeshiva, were just some of the important rabbis who attended.
    Organizers said afterwards that concrete steps to harness haredi buying power would block the "wanton influences" of foreign clothing styles, which are seen as a danger to the haredi community's traditional lifestyle.
    In Bnei Brak, a group calling itself "The Guardians of Holiness and Education" has already met with clothes merchants to convince them to start selling more modest merchandise.
    "One of the ideas is to provide 'modesty certificates' to those clothing stores that meet our demands," said one of the activists who helped organize the conference in Jerusalem. "Stores without the certificates would be boycotted."
    The activist admitted that checking all the apparel stores in Bnei Brak was labor intensive but added that he knew several fellow activists who expressed their willingness to help out.
    The Guardians of Holiness and Education already review literature sold in Bnei Brak and all social events that take place in the town and provide kosher authorization only to those books and events that meet rabbinic standards.
    In Jerusalem, a slightly different tactic is being discussed. A female "modesty tailor" would be posted in each of the large clothing stores serving the haredi community. These women could advise female customers on issues of modesty.
    A principal of a haredi high school for girls in Jerusalem who is active in the modesty campaign said that "modesty certificates" are impractical.
    "Unlike kosher food, which is governed by clear-cut criteria, modest clothing depends on how it is worn and who wears it," said the principal. "There is an interaction between the body and the piece of clothing."
    The principal added that economic factors were fueling the trend of immodest clothing.
    "In the past, most of the clothing came from Europe, where designers tended to have more puritanical sensibilities. But today China and Third World countries are manufacturing cheaper merchandise which is also immodest.
    "But Saturday night's conference sent a clear message to store owners that we are willing to boycott if need be until more modest merchandise is sold."
    Not since the concerted effort two years ago to outlaw cellular phones among yeshiva students have so many important haredi rabbis and yeshiva heads gathered to provide spiritual guidance for their flock.
    The anti-cellular phone campaign forced all the major cellular phone operators to provide the haredi community with special kosher phones that blocked access to Internet and erotic phone calls.

    But unlike the anti-cellphone campaign, which was a joint effort encompassing Lithuanians, Hassidim and Sephardim, Saturday night's modesty rally was attended almost exclusively by Lithuanians. Organizers said there were different approaches to dress among the various haredi groups, which made complete cooperation impossible.
    For instance, Sephardi haredi women do not usually wear wigs, while Hassidim often add a hat to the wig.

     
  • At 12:39 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I think part of the reason that Litvishe women dress more modernly than their Chassidishe contemporaries, is that they are generally higher educated, and therefore end up working in higher positions where they feel a need to dress a certain way. The need for advanced education came about as a result of the need to support kollel husbands, and was therefore encouraged by some Litvishe Gedolim. You can't have it both ways. Those that want to learn longer after marriage, need a highly educated woman to bring in a good salary, and these women end up more modernized. It's one or another. Usually, women are going to look different after having been highly educated and working at high paying positions.

     
  • At 1:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    It shouldn't matter what position a woman takes to support her family; hilchos tznius still must be applied. I am a girl in a secular university but all the same I feel even more of a push to dress in more of a bekavedik way. If a frum woman has no choice for whatever reason to go out into the secular world she has even more of an achrayus to dress in a tzniusdik fashion. In such a case one doesn't now who it is who may catch a glimpse of how we dress. Whether it may be a nonfrum yid, or a goy, we are therefore obligated to go out and put more of an effort for a kiddush Hashem. Every yid must live their life b'derech haTorah, following the hadracha of either a rav or rebbetzin to whom they can relate. If a person is in a position where they may have to go and dip into the goyish world, then it must just be done with a clear understanding of the sakkannah and with her standards preset so that she will hold to them. Yes, I am in a secular area for the time being; yes, I am doing it to b'ezras Hashem be able to support a kollel lifestyle, and no, I do NOT plan on giving up any of my standards just because I am spending my days among goyim.

     
  • At 3:27 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    the reason the girls dress is because the teachers in HS i.e. semenary dress that way

     
  • At 5:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    yiddish mamma said...
    Honestly spaeking: How many electricians, mechanics, bus drivers are there in the Haridi sections in Israel?
    How many do you know in NY?
    See the difference?
    In NY you, me and my parents are (mostly) busy with other things. (the once who don’t have any real jobs couse most troble.) In Israel they trully don’t have what to do with their time! And THIS is the real problem!

    Obviously you don't live here in Eretz Yisroel but besides that how can you talk loshon hora. People are busier here then in N.Y.

     
  • At 10:46 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I alwasy knew this Israeli seminary stuff is nothing but a money maker. It is phony and shelo lishma. It is money making lishma.

     
  • At 11:46 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Now the seminary bashing begins? whats the matter with everyone. first of all if you didnt have half the seminaries that yerushalyaim has , the girls who became frum from them and married kollel guys or are just stam frum wouldnt be where they are today so to call it a money making scheme is absolutely ridiculous and not called for so unless you have been there and have expereinced first hand what these seminaries do, dont you dare knock it. and to anon 7:27 who are you to say that the minute the girls are out of seminarythey break the rules of tzniyut. tznius is such abroad topic with so many aspects to it that people hold in different ways, what is tznius to some is not to the others. From what i can remember of seminary, the kollel wive were always so tznius it was hard fro my friends adn i to even imagine at that point dressing that way, and you knwo hwta BECAUSE of seminary, today we do dress that way. its just amatter of time.

     
  • At 12:12 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Its way over time for RABBIS to stop looking at Girls and Women sooo much. Rather look in the GEMARA better.

     
  • At 12:24 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    By the way Tznius was given for Men they should watch out for what they are looking at LO Susooru Achrei Livavchem V'Achrei Eineichem.
    On women its said Kol Kvudo BAS Melech Pnima.

     
  • At 12:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    If only the the men would look decent in our day lose WEIGHT look like a mentch then Maybe the women wont Dress to Kill.

     
  • At 12:52 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    to 12:34 PM ananymous: What exactly is your point?

     
  • At 1:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I was recently in Monroe where all the women and girls dress in a refined manner. They don't look nerdy to me. You can be elegantly tzniusdik. You don't have to look goyishly trendy.

     
  • At 2:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To "I was recently in Monroe where all the women and girls dress in a refined manner. They don't look nerdy to me".

    Litvish girls have to get married. If they want to marry almost any Litvish boy, they can't look Chassidish. If you see a difference, so do the Litvish boys.

     
  • At 10:34 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    i agree that some of ladies fashion are pushing a bit too much. but why is it that the holy rollers are always busy telling women/girls what to do. first it was the length of our wigs. then it was the fact that they were human hair. in chassidic circles women are NOT ALLOWED to drive cars--but can sit in one while a man drives!!can anyone tell me what is not tznius about a female driving a car? then came the indian hair saga with women burning their shaitlech in the streets--great media news for the goyishe world--on tv and newspapers--why could they not just put it in the garbage? no--it must be a public tumult.and no rabbi complained about that lack of tznius in the middle of the public. and now these "leaders" are busy once again with the women.
    leave us alone already i say.

    why don't all the men go back to learning--if that is what they do???very questionable indeed. or go get yourselves a job--and be busy providing for your family--get busy with what YOU GUYS SHOULDN'T DO -- like look at other women besides your wife, mother, sisters and daughters.

    as it is said-- the head of the home is the man--and the neck is the woman- and guess what turns the head in whatever direction it wants to?? you got that right!

    pick on your own kind and stop harrassing us.
    and for those women who don't stop kowtowing to all the holy rabbi's--if you have no mind of your own--get with the program and be quiet.
    some of us have real brains--not mush--in our heads.
    and we knwo what tznius is--we really do-- even tho i will get lambasted for my "rebellious" comments. i could care less.
    and so here it comes........

     
  • At 12:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I happen to think it's a bigger aveirah to wear expensive outfits a la chassidish ladies because of the jealousy and competition it causes and besides much more emphasis is placed on gashmius amongst this "more tzniusdik" crowd. I'll wear my denim skirt anytime I please. It's very tzniusdik.

     
  • At 4:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The ones who look goyish are the ones that aren't dressed be'tznius those are the ones that look goyish. Monroe

     
  • At 10:49 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 10:02 AM :
    YOU have a point- Seminary girls from the 15th avenue Sem. are prob. more Tzniusdik than most others in Israel.

    Let's face it: Seminaries have been "covering up" too much, too long!

    I agree w. alot of what you said, but you missed the most important point!!!!!!!!!!!!
    What about how the girls get brainwashed there to only marry the kind of boy who DEMANDS f/t support for years???????????? What about that many of the girls regret committing to this lifestyle and everyone around suffers ?????????????????????????
    What about that girls whose parents can't afford this kind of support, get sick bec. many have housefuls of older idealistic girls remaining at home?????????????????????????????

    When these girls can't pay bills, who suffers- the seminaries?

     
  • At 11:38 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    burnw - I agree with what you're saying, however, you sound very bitter...like this is very poersonal to you...what's your beef?

     
  • At 12:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To Burnw said...
    "anon 1049,Yes, I agree with your additional comments. The biggest fraud is the seminary".
    Not mainly bec. of the cost of seminary, but bec. of the ideology pushed on the girls, as discussed above, who are in a naive, impressionable state and age. This ideology works beautifully for the very wealthy.

     
  • At 1:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    to those of you whom have had children who came home and did not gain a tremendous amount, i feel sorry for your financial loss. to those of you who have not yet seen firsthand the effects seminary and yeshiva can have on your children, on what do you base these comments?

     
  • At 2:07 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    If independence would be a virtue preached in Seminaries, R' Matisyahu Solomon, Shlita, wouldn't have to spend so much time helping restore Shalom Bayis to couples feuding over money matters R"L.

     
  • At 3:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    shame on anyine who bashes the seminary system! a quarter of the girls who are frum bnos yisroel are that way BECAUSE of teh seminary they went to. no idealogoies were pushe don us in seminary, whatever was taught was either accepted or rejected, and both were done by choice, not by force. dont trace shalom bayis issues back to seminary, there are shalom bayis issue sbecasue people arent perfect adn there are bound to be issues that both dont agree with not bc so and so didnt learnt his in seminary or yeshivah seriously grwo up!

     
  • At 3:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Obvioulsy you don't know what seminary is all about besides you talking so much loshon hora you don't even know what you are talking about. There is nothing like a year in Yerushalayim Ir Hakodesh.

     
  • At 4:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Serious money problems = Sholom Bayis problems. Simple.

     
  • At 4:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 3:27 and 3:36 PM:

    You obviously didn't read the letter to the Yated last week from a Kollel wife that has to stay at a job where she is told to shlep heavy boxes for the boss, to and from his car, and can't dream of quitting bec. her salary is what the family lives on. Then she has to go home and deal with her husband, children, house, cleaning and meals. Every seminary should read this letter to all the students to show pros and cons before they commit.

     
  • At 7:58 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Anonymous said at4:28 PM
    Wether it was or wasn't read isn't the point there are many reasons women have to or want to work but that doesn't mean that they are or aren't doing it to send their children to seminary. "Maybe" they even want to because they know it will change their childrens life.

     
  • At 8:04 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    to 4:28 granted youre right, but ultimately choosing tobe a kollel wife was her decision she knew she was going to hav to support a family, i dont feel bad for her becasue this is the life she chose to lead

     
  • At 9:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 8:04: "choosing tobe a kollel wife was her decision":

    These girls innocently want to do the right thing, and unless they lived this life, have no idea, of the extent of the ramifications, until it's too late.

     
  • At 12:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To "How in the hell do you phoney yeshivish kids know that the shiksa you hired to take care of your kids does not bring McDonald's into the house during the day when you are supposedly learning and the wife is out working like a dog. ". 10:36 AM

    They can't afford to have s/o come into the house- they ship out all the kids- even newborns.

    The guys and the girls are all VICTIMS that are being brainwashed that they will manage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sure, they manage- with Groisse Tzuris and arguments.

     
  • At 12:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Seminaries should all have a Gemach fund for when the girls are in hot water, like nebach the girl that wrote the letter. She can't be the only one.

    WHERE ARE OUR GEDOLIM? CAN'T THEY HEAR THE CRIES?

     
  • At 1:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    well said 10:36!!!!

     
  • At 2:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    How can we pierce the hearts of Gedoilim to do something to prevent more of the same?

     
  • At 3:49 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    The Agudah convention willbe addressing the topic of
    Blogs/putting down Gedolim. Wouldn't it be nice if they addressed WHY so many are getting disenchanted?

    S'iz nisht tu mit vamen tze redden.

    THAT'S WHY WE'RE BLOGGING.

     
  • At 4:32 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    ...no - you're blogging because you have nothing else important to do!!

     
  • At 4:36 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Look at the world we're living in! THAT's why there's so little emunas chochomim. It's a twisted, goyishe velt that we've stuck ourselves into. I'm not saying we all must live like we're in New Svere or Williamsberg, but just know and raise your families with certain ideals and insights and THEY WILL GROW UP WITH EMUNAS CHOCHOMIM. It's all in our perception of what's going on.

     
  • At 5:01 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 4:32 PM

    And you?

     
  • At 5:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 4:36 PM - "It's all in our perception of what's going on".

    Like the girl that wrote the letter- she's imagining her suffering.

     
  • At 7:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    anon 349,

    you are deceiving yourself if you think the Agudah convention is going to tackle the emunas chachomim problem in an effective manner.

    One big whitewash. The klal will be blamed for it. THere will be no inner searching on the part of those who..........

     
  • At 10:26 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I want to say, when I went to seminary, and it was one of the normal "bais yaakov" seminaries, not that long ago, we were told very explicately not to marry guys in kollel if it wasn't where we were at. I remember hearing many times from many teachers and rabbanim that kollel is NOT for everyone. They instilled in the girls the idea that it IS tough, but that it's a zechus to be living a kollel lifestyle. They were very much into giving the girls a clear picture of what they were heading into, the ups, and also the downs of it.

    THIS is how seminaries should all be presenting the idea of kollel; that it's a beautiful way of life, but that it isn't all just easy street. Girls mustn't enter into a marriage and THEN go and ecide that it wasn't for her. It's a HUGE decision, and must be made only once a girl is well informed of what she is heading into.

    I am not saying in any way that it's a girl's fault when she does enter into a kollel marriage which leaves her in a tight spot. I am merely saying that she must know the ramifications before she enters it. Marriage in itself is one of the largiest decisions two people will make in their lives, and kollel is must take up the proper amount of weight in that decision.

    Again, as one rav stated buring my seminary year, do NOT marry a kollel guy if you think you will regret it later, because you'll be potetially ruining both your lives.

     
  • At 10:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To 7:48 PM :

    Time to start a VOS IZ NEIAS organization. We can have a free convention once a year online. No Askonim- Only members all treated equally. We can have a free convention once a year online, where all members vote on issues. One man = one vote, with strict adherence.

    Funnier things have happened in life.

     
  • At 3:17 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Why are you all so against Tznius? Are you also so against learning Torah?

     
  • At 10:10 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To Why are you all so against Tznius? Are you also so against learning Torah? 3:17 AM

    The issues being discussed, might have strayed off the topic somewhat, but outweigh the inch of hemlines in importance. Bloggers are asking why girls are coaxed to enter a lifestyle they don't fully comprehend until its too late. The girls,AFTER THE BEST OF ATTEMPTS, can't adapt. They are often left with husbands that say TOO BAD- you promised.

    No Parnassah> No Sholom Bayis> Other serious problems.

     
  • At 6:02 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Anonymous said... No Parnassah> No Sholom Bayis> Other serious problems.
    10:10 AM

    As long at they are happy that is the main thing B'H they don't need the gashmios. Today we are so spoiled & living in such a gashmios world. People were much happier when they had less. It's not for us to to say if they have or don't have problems that is their life & they are learning Torah B'H. We have to have Emunah & Bitachon in Ha-shem. Do you have anything against learning Torah?

     
  • At 7:13 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I wonder if i studied in the same sem as 10:26.
    Because my Rabbi said the same thing...not e/o should be in kollel, if you aren't ready for it, please dont marry a kollel guy. But marry a mensch, someone who is serious about whatever he does, whether it's learning or working, and hopefully both.

    The rabbi spoke to each girl and tried to help her decide what was good for her. He also helps us now that we're back in the states.

    AND, I paid no tuition, along with a bunch of other girls, because he is a tzaddik and knew i couldnt afford it.
    He also did and does have a gemach for kallos and for poor girls spending money in sem. I don't know if they're all like that, but my seminary is.
    they also charged less than every other sem by about $3000, so i dont think theyre getting rich.

     
  • At 10:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To all those that are comfortable with the Seminaries/Kollel sitch:

    What would you do if that veibel that wrote the letter, was your daughter, and you didn't have enuf cash to help her out til she finds another job?

     
  • At 2:30 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    i want to know if you kollel guys and seminary gals have health insurance when you marry.

     
  • At 2:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    all too often, you guys have a concept of tznius that incorporates among other things
    a $5,000 sheitel.

    WHo in the hell are you kidding?

    Phoney Phony FOny foney

     
  • At 10:13 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    What does the cost of sheitels have to do w. anything?

     
  • At 10:57 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    burnw you are way out of line with everything you are saying, do not generalize with seminaries, there are some that do amazing things adn to sum them up under one definition is wrong. i allso think we need to clarify that some people are talkign about high school in EY and some are talking about the year after an american girl graduates high school. read this weeks Jewish Press article "Seminary or not" she wanted to go bu tin the end realize dit wasnt for her but she still saw it as a beautiful thing. Burnw - unfortunately for you, u dotn knowe any of the rabbis of the seminaries, they have so many gemachs and they give so mucht o kollel funds that you just have no idea what youre spewing, in my seminary there was at LEAST 10-15 girls that were there either for free or on partial scholarship bc they couldnt afford it, so dont say its as money making scheme when you have no idea what youre even saying, grow up and do some research before you spew things that you have no clue about

     
  • At 12:27 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To Anon 10:57 AM -
    Most people realize that there are alot of excellent Seminaries and people involved with them. But that doesn't change the fact that there are many that browbeat the girls by telling them that Kollel life is the best way to live, and any other life is inferior. These girls then end up not wanting to get married, unless their parents promise what they can't afford to promise, which causes big problems.

     
  • At 12:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    True.
    browbeat (v.) To intimidate or subjugate by an overbearing manner or domineering speech; bully.

     
  • At 3:16 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Can you honestly say the Midos of those that lived the Kollel life supercedes those that didn't?

     
  • At 3:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    burnw - id rather not give names for reasons, a. its not neccasary and b. unfortunately it might spark lashon hara thats uncalled for so lets leave teh names being anonymous. and i know girls out of seminary already married for 3 4 yearrs and yes some are in kollel adn b"h they are all happy so no not all of your arguemtns are 100 percent coprrect. i agree that if a seminary pushes kollel they have to let the girls know what that entails, and youre right some semonaries dont do that, but lets be fair and objective adn say that their are seminaries who do the right thing for girls whether it be kollel or not. all im saying is lets not put seminary under one category, lets leave it that each seminary is different and dofferent girls benefit in different ways.

     
  • At 3:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I know too many that are just tolerating their lives. They feel they were pushed into it by pressure at school.

     
  • At 4:04 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    look your going to have both sides of the story girls that are happy and fine and girls that arent, thats all im saying, everyone is different we should leave it at that

     
  • At 4:58 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    To "look your going to have both sides of the story girls that are happy and fine and girls that arent, thats all im saying, everyone is different we should leave it at that"

    That does not justify painting a picture of the beautiful idealistic life with very barely, if at all, addressing the painful warts.

     
  • At 8:12 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Burnw said...
    anon 319,
    the point I want to get across is to stop putting pressure on ALL girls that they must attend seminary if they are to be considered eligible for marriage.
    It is not true. Seminaries do not make a person. Midos Tovos makes a person. Sitting in a sleepaway school for one year in Israel does not transform a person. Stop putting pressure on people to follow a certain path, when in fact that path is not a proven concept. Our yiddishe grandmothers and greatgrandmothers lived through the Holocaust and were moiser nefesh, all without seminary learning. Yes, seminary is good for some but not necessary for all.
    10:56 PM

    Yes, they do make a person they can change their whole life. Obviously then you don't know about seminaries.

     
  • At 8:25 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    you knwo what burn w i agree with you on most of your points, pressure on girls to go to seminary shouldbe stopped, and it shouldnt be a criteria for a girl to get married 100% im with you, however the times of our grandmothers and great grandmothers generation is a little different than todays..... some girls need it some dont... but youre right pressure on the girsl to go needs to stop.

     
  • At 1:36 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Right on burnw!!!!!

    Midos is the name of the game. If grades 1-12 didn't do it, neither will Seminary. Either you have it or you don't. Unfortunately some seminary girls come out so jappy and demanding of parents to finance their fantasy husbands and weddings, it's nauseating. There are exceptions, but there are too many "ugly in Midos" Seminary products.

     

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